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[分享]小提琴越古老就越值钱么?

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发表于 2010-7-12 22:27:00 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

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小提琴越古老就越值钱?




 

Violin-making is flourishing, but the 450-year-old ones are still the best.


 

小提琴制作蓬勃发展,但是有着450年历史的仍旧是最好的。







 

THE concert at London’s Wigmore Hall was a sell-out, and the performance of trios for violin, cello and piano by Schumann and Mozart got a rapturous reception. The cello, played by Tanja Tetzlaff, was a wonderfully mellow 1776 Guadagnini. The violin, played by her brother, Christian Tetzlaff, complemented it beautifully, but its provenance was more unexpected. It was made by a contemporary German luthier, Peter Greiner.


 

英国威格摩尔厅音乐会的票已经脱销了,小提琴、大提琴和钢琴演奏的舒曼和莫扎特的演出引起了轰动。由Tanja Tetzlaff演奏的大提琴是一把音质甘美芳醇的瓜达尼尼1776。小提琴则是由她的兄弟Christian Tetzlaff演奏的,与大提琴的声音交相辉映,完美的互补,但是先前人们并没有预料到。它是由当代的德国弦乐器制作家Peter Greiner 制作的。


 

Mr Tetzlaff plays not just one but two Greiner violins: a louder, brighter one he has owned for ten years and which is particularly good for solo parts, and the darker one, more suitable for ensembles, which he used that evening. Most string virtuosi perform on instruments made by Italian masters a few hundred years ago, and preferably by Antonio Stradivari, the greatest of them all.


 

Tetzlaff 先生拥有两把Greiner的小提琴:一把比较宽宏响亮的适合独奏,同时也已经演奏十年了;另一把音量较小,更适合合奏,他一般用来在晚上演奏。大部分喜欢古董琴的演奏家更青睐于几百年前的意大利大师琴,其中最著名的是安东尼奥·斯特拉迪瓦里的作品。


 

Mr Tetzlaff has previously played two Strads and a Guadagnini. Now, when he gives a concert on one of his Greiners, people often ask whether it is a Strad. He thinks that the best modern violin-makers offer outstanding quality at a small fraction of the price of an old one by a famous maker.


 

因为之前Tetzlaff先生演奏过两把斯琴和一把瓜达尼尼,所以,当他用格雷纳的琴举办音乐会以后,人们不断的问他是不是用斯琴演奏的。他认为当代优秀的提琴制作家能制作出许多杰出的作品,但其价格只是古董琴的一小部分。


 

Mr Greiner has been making fiddles (as the fraternity likes to call them) since he was 14. Now in his early 40s, he has produced 250 so far. He works closely with a physicist, Heinrich Dünnwald, and aims to make violins whose tone comes close to the human voice. He charges ?/a>32,000-38,000 ($48,000-57,000) apiece, well above the average for a good modern maker, but his waiting list is so long that he will never get to the end.


 

格雷纳先生自从他14岁时就开始制作小提琴了。如今,在他前40年里已经制作了250把。他跟物理学家Heinrich Dünnwald走的很近,目的是想让琴的音色和人声更接近。他的琴每把要卖到32000-38000英镑,虽然价格远高于一个现代制作师的作品,但是他的订单一个接着一个永远都做不完。


 

The past two decades have seen a renaissance of string-instrument-making (violins, violas and cellos) by luthiers across the world. They can learn their trade at renowned violin-making schools in a number of countries. But those with the most distinguished connections are in Italy: in Milan, Parma and especially in Cremona, home of the most fabled of the 16th-18th-century violin-makers: the Amati, Guarneri and Stradivari families.


 

在过去的二十年里,弦乐器制作在世界上可看作是一个复兴时期。提琴工匠们可以在一些国家的有名气的提琴制作学校学习制作技艺。其中享有盛名的是意大利的米兰、帕尔马,尤其是克雷莫纳,因为在16世纪至18世纪,有着传奇色彩的制琴家族:阿玛蒂、瓜奈里和斯特拉迪瓦里家族就在那里。




 

Advantage Cremona  克雷莫纳的优势


 

On a sunny autumn morning students are milling around the Scuola Internazionale di Liuteria A. Stradivari, housed in a palazzo in the centre of Cremona, a handsome city in the Po valley south-east of Milan. Most are foreign, but they all chat in Italian: fluency in the language is one of the school’s entry requirements. All are keen to learn how to make violins in the Cremonese tradition.


 

在一个阳光明媚的秋日早晨,学生们在Scuola Internazionale di Liuteria A. Stradivari 打磨铣削,学校坐落于米兰东南部波河山谷的风景秀丽的克雷莫纳市中心帕拉佐。学生中大部分是外国人,但是他们都说意大利语:流利的语言交流是入校的必备条件之一。他们都热衷于学习如何制作有着克雷莫纳传统的小提琴。


 

The school was founded in 1937 to mark the 200th anniversary of Stradivari’s death. Since then it has produced nearly 800 graduates. Some 300 were Italian, but most have been foreign, including 58 Japanese, 48 South Koreans and even eight students from China, a country better known for cheap and basic factory-made instruments than for fine violins. Some take the tradition home: two of America’s best-known violin-makers, Joseph Curtin and Gregg Alf, trained in Cremona. But many subsequently set up shop in Cremona itself. The city has around 150 luthiers, all hoping to benefit from the city’s association with the grandest names in violin-making and from the cluster effect. The local chamber of commerce provides some financial support for showing instruments at fairs and exhibitions. Some 65 luthiers have formed a consortium that certifies products and helps with marketing.


 

这所学校成立于1937年,为了祭奠去世200年的斯特拉迪瓦里。从那以后就培养了将近800名毕业生。其中有300人来自意大利,其余大部分是外国人,包括58个日本人,48个韩国人,甚至8个中国人,中国素来以生产大量的廉价工厂琴被人们所知。其中也有一些名家:两个著名的美国制琴师也在克雷莫纳学习过,约瑟夫·柯廷和格雷格·阿尔夫。但是,随着克雷莫纳的提琴商店纷纷开业,全市有将近150个提琴工匠,都希望这座城市在提琴制作领域的名气和簇团效应来使自己获利。当地的商会也提供一些政策支持开设乐器集市或者展销会。由65个提琴工匠组成的联合会专门进行乐器鉴定和销售。


 

Francesco Toto, the consortium’s vice-president, thinks that the luthiers benefit from the craft’s long tradition in Cremona. But that has been far from continuous. Violin-making in the city reached its zenith late in the 17th century, then declined from the mid-18th century as luthiers moved elsewhere. By the late 19th century a local factory churned out violins. Only after the school opened, did craftsmen return and quality pick up again.


 

联合会副会长弗朗西斯科·托托认为,工匠们的利益来自克雷莫纳悠久的传统制琴工艺。但是它不是连续着的。克雷莫纳的提琴制作最兴盛时期开始于17世纪,然后18世纪中期便开始衰落了,由于工匠们都移居别处了。19世纪晚期当地的工厂只能艰难的制作小提琴。学校开办以后,手艺人们归来以后制作水平才得以提高。


 

To help create the right atmosphere, Cremona has been adding to its collection of superb old-master violins on view in the town hall, including famous Strads and Amatis. Every morning a curator takes each one out of its glass case and plays it for a few minutes to keep it in peak condition. Another group of magnificent fiddles is on view in the Stradivari museum. A violin-making festival in the city offers a feast of music each autumn and a competition for making stringed instruments is held every three years.


 

为创造良好的氛围,克雷莫纳在市政厅设立古董琴收藏展,包括著名的斯特拉迪瓦里和阿玛蒂。每天早上它的管理者就会把它们从玻璃柜子里拿出来一一演奏,然后再保存起来。另一组高贵的小提琴在斯特拉迪瓦里博物馆中展出。每三年举行一次的弦乐器制作大赛中,人们为了小提琴制作而竞争的同时也为人们提供了一场音乐盛宴。


 

Gaspar Borchardt, whose workshop is opposite Cremona’s cathedral, is inspired by the beautiful Romanesque building. He says that the city’s violin-making school taught him very precise craftsmanship, but most of what he knows comes from 27 years of practice. He makes about eight instruments a year, each of which takes 200-250 hours of painstaking work—and lots of creative energy. Mr Toto of the makers’ consortium explains that “you are constantly thinking about the violin you are making, so you couldn’t keep several going at the same time.” Makers usually finish putting together one, then begin varnishing it and start work on the next as the layers of varnish dry.


 

加斯帕·博哈特的工作室设在克雷莫纳的大教堂,由于是美丽的古罗马式建筑被人们称道。他说是这个城市的小提琴制作学校教了他非常精湛的工艺,但是他知道的大部分是通过27年的练习得来的。他每年制作8把琴,每一把都需要200-250个小时的辛苦工作和具有创造性的思维。联合会的制作师托托先生解释说:因为你持续不断的在思考你做的琴,所以没办法有做其他事的精力。工匠们通常是把上完清漆的琴放在一起风干,之后再做下一把琴。


 

Good violin-makers can earn a reasonable living. A new instrument from Cremona can command up to ?8,000, plus tax, depending on the maker. The recession has not helped. Mr Borchardt says he used to have a waiting list of two years, but the downturn has halved it. Still, most makers are not in it for the money but because they are passionate about violins.

好的制琴师可以谋求合理的生活。一把克雷莫纳的新琴可以卖到18000欧元含税,依照制琴师的工艺。经济不景气也不会造成很大影响。博哈特先生说他曾经两年只等到一份订单,降价后变成一年一份。然而,多数制琴师在这里不是为了钱因为他们都对小提琴充满热情。



 

Preserving a precious asset  收藏宝贵的资产







 

Carrying out high-class repairs can be financially more rewarding than making new instruments. Violins are quite fragile and most will need repairing sooner or later, so there is always a demand. If the instrument is worth a lot, the quality of the repair can make a big difference to its value, so a skilled restorer can set his price.


 

进行高级琴的维修可在收益上比新琴制作能获得更大的回报。小提琴是非常脆弱的乐器,而且它们迟早是要进行维护的,所以就有了市场需求。如果提琴比它自身更有价值的话,那么对它进行的维修质量则与它本身的价值有着很大的不同,所以一名技艺高超的提琴修复师可以自己设定非常可观的价格。


 

Expertise in making and repairing is essential to a business such as J&A Beare, a venerable London firm of string-instrument dealers, valuers and restorers that has been going for over 100 years. Frances Gillham, a director, previously worked in the musical-instrument department at Christie’s, but says that professional musicians rarely buy at auction: they prefer a relationship with a trusted dealer. Beare’s has a huge database of old violins which it uses to authenticate instruments, and offers a restoration service. Ms Gillham says that scientific advances have improved restoration techniques and restorers have grown more respectful of the original.


 

掌握在提琴制作和修理方面的专门技术是像英国J&A Beare公司这样的乐器服务公司所必须的,他们已经在提琴制作、维护和出售等商业活动方面有100年的历史了。曾是克里斯蒂乐器部门的负责人弗朗西斯·吉勒姆说:人们在拍卖会上买到的琴只是极少数,他们更愿意和值得信任的商人建立合作关系。Beare公司有一个庞大的古琴资料库用于古琴鉴定,并且提供修复服务。由于科技的进步使修复技术提高了,修复师也渐渐的得到了认可和尊重。


 

Peter Beare, another of the firm’s directors, has made an instrument for Nigel Kennedy, among others. Many famous performers play modern violins alongside their old masters, not least because they are often more resistant to the rigours of air travel and central heating, but also because they may be more suitable for certain kinds of music. Sometimes the musicians actually prefer them. The cellist Jacqueline du Pré played two Strads and an instrument by Matteo Goffriller, who worked in Venice 300 years ago, but towards the end of her career switched to a modern cello made in Philadelphia by an Italian-born luthier, Sergio Peresson.


 

另一位公司董事皮特·比尔说他们为奈格尔·肯尼迪做了一把琴。许多著名的演奏家更多的去演奏现代小提琴而很少用古琴,不单是因为它们对于航空运输和暖气有更好的适应性,而是古琴更适合去演奏一些特定类型的音乐。所以音乐家们常常会更乐于使用现代提琴。大提琴家杰奎琳·杜普蕾拥有两把斯特拉迪瓦里和一把马泰奥?葛弗瑞勒的作品,葛弗瑞勒在300年前的威尼斯工作,但当杜普蕾的职业生涯接近尾声的时候,她在费城委托意大利制琴师Sergio Peresson为她制作了一把现代大提琴。


 

The highest price yet paid for a contemporary violin, at an auction in 2003, was $130,000 for an instrument made by an American, Samuel Zygmuntowicz, which had previously been owned by a virtuoso, Isaac Stern. Mr Zygmuntowicz, who has also made instruments for Joshua Bell and the Emerson String Quartet, is rated as one of the best violin-makers alive. Even so, that record price probably had much to do with the previous owner. “This is not like the art world,” explains a collector. There are no Andy Warhols or Damien Hirsts among the luthiers. Even outstanding modern instruments rarely fetch more than $30,000-40,000.


 

迄今为止现代提琴交易最高价格是在2003年的一家拍卖行,它是美国著名制琴师Samuel Zygmuntowicz的作品,以130000美元成交,之前是收藏家艾萨克·斯特恩所有。Zygmuntowicz先生被视为当今世界最杰出的制琴师之一,他也为贝尔和埃默森弦乐四重奏乐团制作提琴。即便如此,提琴的拍卖价格也和之前的所有者有关。“它不像是在艺术界。”收藏家说道。提琴制作领域没有安迪·沃霍尔或达明·赫斯特。即使是最杰出的现代提琴,它的价格也很难超过30000-40000美元。


 

That sort of money will go nowhere if you want to buy a fine old violin. Stradivari himself made around 1,100 instruments, a huge number by any standard, because he lived to be 93 and worked obsessively to his dying breath. Around 650 of those instruments survive, mostly violins. But even though there are quite a few Strads around and not all of them have star quality, even a cheaper one now costs around $1.6m. The highest price for a Strad at auction was $3.5m, paid in 2006. But the few that come on the market generally change hands privately, and for far more: an outstanding example is likely to cost $10m-12m. Fine violins by less exalted old Italians still fetch hundreds of thousands of dollars, and prices keep rising. By one dealer’s reckoning, fine-violin prices have gone up by an average of nearly 12% a year since 1950.


 

即使你有钱也未必能买到一把优质的古琴。斯特拉迪瓦里本人制作了将近1100把提琴,太多的人想拥有它们了,他近乎偏执的对提琴制作的热爱直至他93岁停止呼吸的那一刻。至今大约有650把斯琴流传了下来,大部分是小提琴。即使目前只有少部分的斯琴并且它们中间也并非全都质地优良,但是最便宜的现在也能达到160万美元。2006年,斯琴在拍卖行拍出了350万美元的高价。在市场上的私人交易只是极少数,其间的珍品如果拍卖的话估计会达到1000-1200万美元。那些并不出名的意大利制琴师制作的古琴仍然能卖到几十万美元,并且价格在不断上涨。据一名交易商的推断,优质提琴的价格自从1950年开始就以平均每年12%的增长幅度上升。


 

That makes life particularly hard for ambitious young string players. There are many more of them now, achieving ever higher standards ever earlier, and competition is getting fiercer as the profession becomes more global. Unless they come from wealthy families, they have to win lots of competitions, quickly make a name and hope that someone will lend them a great instrument. Nicola Benedetti, a young Scottish celebrity fiddler, plays a 1712 Stradivari estimated to be worth £2m ($3.3m), lent to her by a generous sponsor. Jennifer Pike, a young English violinist, is trying to scrape together £250,000 to buy her 1708 Goffriller. The best young players may get an interest-free loan from a sponsor or trust, but they will be paying it off for most of their lives.


 

对于那些具有抱负的年轻演奏家们来说生活是尤其艰难的。他们在全球行业竞争日益激烈的今天,不得不在早期阶段就要达到很高的技术水平。除非他们家庭富有,否则他们不得不靠赢得比赛去寄希望于别人借给他们优良的乐器。苏格兰青年小提琴演奏家尼古拉·贝纳德蒂拥有一把据说价值3.3M美元的斯特拉迪瓦里1712,是一名慷慨的赞助者借用给她的。英国青年小提琴家珍妮弗·派克正筹划购买价值250000英镑的葛弗瑞勒1708。优秀的青年演奏家会得到不收利息的赞助者的赞助,但他们必须为他们自己的生活而演奏。


 

Alternatively they could go to someone like Mr Zygmuntowicz, Mr Greiner or another well-established modern violin-maker and get a beautifully hand-crafted instrument specially made for them at a price they can afford. It will sound splendid, and few of their audience will know the difference. But most of the truly career-minded will try for an old master, by hook or by crook. Are they being silly?


 

他们也可以选择去Zygmuntowicz先生、格莱纳先生或者其他优秀的现代提琴制作师那里量身打造一把价格能接受的优质手工琴。它们听起来也非常华丽,而且极少听众能察觉它们的不同。但是多半职业演奏家无论如何也想得到一把古琴。难道他们糊涂了么?



 

Which is the Strad? 哪一把是斯琴


 

Every expert has a story about a “blind” test in which several instruments are played out of sight and the listeners have to guess which is the Strad and which the modern pretender. They often get it wrong. There are good and bad Strads, and some fine modern violins. A lot can be done to tweak an instrument to make it sound better, and a brilliant player can make even a run-of-the-mill violin sound great for five minutes. But he will not want to have to try that hard all the time. And many musicians genuinely believe that a great old instrument will do more for them than a new one.


 

有专家测试过同时用几把小提琴演奏,去区分哪一把是斯琴演奏的哪一把是现代提琴演奏的。很难区分。因为中间有好的斯琴、劣的斯琴和优质的现代琴。在提琴调整上花大功夫可以使声音变的更好,一名优秀的演奏者能使一把普通的提琴声音听起来与众不同。但他不想每次都花那么大功夫。许多音乐家真正相信一把古琴能比新琴为他们带来的更多。


 

An element of self-reinforcing snobbery is at work. If everyone thinks that old instruments are best, then a self-respecting virtuoso will want to play one because it is expected of him. And old instruments often have a history that adds to their lustre. Stradivari became wealthy by making violins for the rich and powerful. His instruments were highly esteemed, played by the virtuosi of their day, perhaps heard by famous composers. Only a curmudgeon could deny the romance of it all.


 

在恃才傲物因素的作用下,如果每个人都认为古琴好,那么一个自尊心强的名家就会想用古琴演奏因为他想让别人尊重他。每一把古琴背后都有厚重的历史,这更可以增加他们的光辉。斯特拉迪瓦里因为他的多样而优质的提琴变的富有。他的乐器被高度称赞,被名家们演奏,也许让作曲家们听到了。只有没修养的人才会拒绝关于它的传奇韵事。


 

But the difference may not all be in the mind. Even enthusiasts for modern instruments often concede that the finest of the old are better than the best of the new. That may have something to do with age itself. Most musical instruments wear out or are consigned to niche markets by design changes. Only violins, violas and cellos last hundreds of years if well looked after. They are working antiques: desirable, collectable and mostly still played every day. Several hundred years off the tree has made the wood dry and light, and constant use may have changed its qualities.


 

但是区别不仅仅体现在思维方式。即使是钟情于现代提琴的人有时也会承认最好的古琴好于最好的新琴。这可能与年限有关。大多数乐器因为改变设计而被寄售于特定的市场。只有小提琴、中提琴和大提琴在过去一百年里被仔细的保存。他们被作为古董来收藏,其中大部分仍被每天演奏着。几百年过去了,木材变干变轻,持续使用也会改变木材结构。


 

Florian Leonhard, a London dealer, says that time has “vibrated the wood”. Ms Gillham at Beare’s thinks that some Italian violins from the 1900s are now beginning to improve noticeably as they age. So perhaps in another century the finest instruments made today will also have become even better. But the best of the old Italian masters will probably still outdazzle them.


 

伦敦的提琴修复大师弗罗伦·里奥赫多认为是因为木材的震动。Beare公司的吉勒姆认为:从提琴的年限方面讲,一些意大利琴从20世纪开始其声音有显著的提升。所以,也许在将来的某个世纪最好的提琴会是现代提琴。但是目前优质的意大利大师级古琴仍旧会领先于他们。









 

转自《The Economist》,中文是自己加的,翻译的不好,如果能看懂英文的话,建议看英文。














 

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-13 17:52:00 | 显示全部楼层

杜绝零回复

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-13 17:52:39编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-13 17:53:00 | 显示全部楼层

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-13 17:54:51编辑过]

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发表于 2010-7-13 20:07:00 | 显示全部楼层
我早上回复了,马上又消失了,不知道为什么?我说“这样的琴友和文章值得顶”。也许是我操作错了,出现了一下,后来就没有了。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-13 20:07:53编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-13 23:00:00 | 显示全部楼层
莫非LS试奏过两位大师的作品

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发表于 2010-7-13 23:01:00 | 显示全部楼层
我汗.....《The Economist》的文章么..



首先, 这是一个买琴的想法的问题(你为什么要买?), 人人都会有不同. 我们觉得, 新琴比较漂亮, 而且有增长空间, 持有20年的话, 声音会越来越好. 新琴上的每个伤痕, 都记录着学琴者犯下的错误. 永久的纪念, 你的琴会变的和你一样特殊而独一.

而老琴过于昂贵, 拍卖, 佣金等等都要付. 如果是音乐家还好, 琴是办公用品花销, 可以退个人所得税. 若是一般人, 买太贵的就没必要了.


另外, 有想研究音乐物理学的朋友可以看看 澳大利亚新南威尔士大学的网站(英语), 他们有很多专业和长期的研究. 比如两把琴, 一把每天拉, 一把收藏起来一直不动, 经过长时间后这会对声音有什么影响. 这项研究他们进行了十年以上了. 似乎要一直做下去的样子.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/violintro.html


至于值钱嘛...1960年道琼斯工业指数只有600~700点, 到2000年涨到了11700点, 到2007年经济危机前已经涨到了14000点以上....

所以, 如果你把通货膨胀算进来的话, 高价琴的价格可能根本没涨过.

(把通货膨胀算进来的话, 虽然黄金从400美元每盎司涨到了1256美元, 但实际上黄金价格是跌了....)

再者, 甲古文公司的CEO买了个游艇就多少来着.....2亿9千万美元......还有买私人火箭的........

上次蒙特利尔银行交易天然气投资失败, 损失60亿......那时候该银行的股票也仅仅跌了2%而已.....

很多人是完全不会在乎琴价的.......

由有钱人主导的拍卖价格....对一般人意义不是特别大.......





空行又出错了. 编辑上br br br br....


[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-13 23:03:57编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-13 23:25:00 | 显示全部楼层

此文只是我闲闷无聊时翻看电子杂志时发现的,没曾想到经济学人也能发现关于小提琴的文章,随即翻译下来贴于此论坛同众琴友分享。多谢 ken23  的补充,您见多识广,我在这里真是班门弄斧,布鼓雷门了

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发表于 2010-7-14 00:45:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用考拉ms在2010-7-13 23:25:00的发言:

此文只是我闲闷无聊时翻看电子杂志时发现的,没曾想到经济学人也能发现关于小提琴的文章,随即翻译下来贴于此论坛同众琴友分享。多谢 ken23  的补充,您见多识广,我在这里真是班门弄斧,布鼓雷门了图片点击可在新窗口打开查看

这这这......哪里哪里...是我不好....借贴发泄了...

整天看牛熊斗的激烈文章, 自己被带进沟里了, 说话不知不觉的也冲了.. 大家要海涵

主要是这几天看到某网站上的"专家导购"栏目, 十分不满.

首先文章全是转的, 根本没什么专家主持.

而且内容简直是乱来, 煽动大家买琴, "小提琴投资市场 回报率超过2000%" "高回报的投资,古董小提琴" "古董小提琴投资潜力丰厚"...

这都什么文章啊.....跟街边杂志上骗人的"致富快""项目", 卖烤鸡,做彩色豆腐,剪报致富,的骗人广告有什么区别.

太气人了.


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发表于 2010-7-14 03:14:00 | 显示全部楼层


以下是引用Ken23在2010-7-13 23:01:00的发言:
我汗.....《The Economist》的文章么..



首先, 这是一个买琴的想法的问题(你为什么要买?), 人人都会有不同. 我们觉得, 新琴比较漂亮, 而且有增长空间, 持有20年的话, 声音会越来越好. 新琴上的每个伤痕, 都记录着学琴者犯下的错误. 永久的纪念, 你的琴会变的和你一样特殊而独一.

而老琴过于昂贵, 拍卖, 佣金等等都要付. 如果是音乐家还好, 琴是办公用品花销, 可以退个人所得税. 若是一般人, 买太贵的就没必要了.


另外, 有想研究音乐物理学的朋友可以看看 澳大利亚新南威尔士大学的网站(英语), 他们有很多专业和长期的研究. 比如两把琴, 一把每天拉, 一把收藏起来一直不动, 经过长时间后这会对声音有什么影响. 这项研究他们进行了十年以上了. 似乎要一直做下去的样子.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/violintro.html


至于值钱嘛...1960年道琼斯工业指数只有600~700点, 到2000年涨到了11700点, 到2007年经济危机前已经涨到了14000点以上....

所以, 如果你把通货膨胀算进来的话, 高价琴的价格可能根本没涨过.

(把通货膨胀算进来的话, 虽然黄金从400美元每盎司涨到了1256美元, 但实际上黄金价格是跌了....)

再者, 甲古文公司的CEO买了个游艇就多少来着.....2亿9千万美元......还有买私人火箭的........

上次蒙特利尔银行交易天然气投资失败, 损失60亿......那时候该银行的股票也仅仅跌了2%而已.....

很多人是完全不会在乎琴价的.......

由有钱人主导的拍卖价格....对一般人意义不是特别大.......





空行又出错了. 编辑上br br br br....



[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-13 23:03:57编辑过]



看了澳大利亚的那篇文章, 3年下来, 一个天天拉的琴和偶尔拉一下的琴, 在人的听觉下, 没有显著的差异


[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-14 3:19:10编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-14 13:48:00 | 显示全部楼层
也许是三年时间太短了,不足以使两把琴的声音差别能使正常人区分开来

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发表于 2010-7-14 22:31:00 | 显示全部楼层
那么说来, 其实一个制琴师没必要把琴板做厚, 人的寿命有限, 等个一百年或十年来开音, 价值不知道在何处?

综合一下版上讨论开音的方法,和逻辑的概念:

新琴开音要多拉; BACH的曲子适合开音; 海菲兹指出BACH的曲子不可不拉; 音乐系的学生拉琴时间很长且一定会拉BACH的曲目; 加上定期的调整, 琴一直保持在最好的状态。。。

3年后, 由交响乐的学生评比(都是独立样本, 没有惯于琴声的问题), 声音并没有比较好。。。。。

那换句话说, 两年或是3年觉得自己琴声音改善了的人, 是不是只是习惯了琴声, 而产生听觉怠惰, 或心理改善而已?

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发表于 2010-7-14 22:33:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用考拉ms在2010-7-14 13:48:00的发言:
也许是三年时间太短了,不足以使两把琴的声音差别能使正常人区分开来



那文章里的人(样本)都是音乐专业的, 如果他们不能, 估计一般人更不行了, 而且blind test的实验中, 文章里的澳大利亚首席小提琴手也无法分辨出, 直接用看加听的, 从使用的痕迹上, 他24次中了20次, 也不是一定能分出的。。。。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-14 22:37:29编辑过]

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发表于 2010-7-14 23:48:00 | 显示全部楼层
我倒不认为这是 研究着好玩的, 这是一个很重要的问题, 做琴的是澳大利亚的顶级制琴师, 他放了两把琴的录音, 可以听听看琴如何, 之前法国也做了blind test, 放了3把琴, 一把是Stradivari的琴, 一把是新琴, 同时请了那把新琴制作者一起加入评比, 结果是那把新琴被评比声音最好, 大家都跌破眼镜, 一脸失望的样子, 这个录像也贴在这个论坛了。。。。。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-14 23:52:26编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-14 23:51:00 | 显示全部楼层
同意楼上观点,说不定他们实验用的样本琴声音成熟时间需要几十年呢

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发表于 2010-7-15 00:08:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用考拉ms在2010-7-14 23:51:00的发言:
同意楼上观点,说不定他们实验用的样本琴声音成熟时间需要几十年呢



看看这个人贴的, 他用GREINER的琴来演奏, 他也用原版师琴和瓜达尼尼琴, 而大家也是问他是不是用意大利古琴, 而GREINER的琴也不过十年, 它声音就成熟了, 可以用于音乐厅了的大型音乐会,表是GREINER制琴的水平已经超越了古意大利琴师了?

我看过关于要买GREINER的琴, 还得先寄给他的经纪人个人简历, 评比后才决定要不要帮这个人作琴, 他定单是多的作不完就是了。。。。。。。

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





英国威格摩尔厅音乐会的票已经脱销了,小提琴、大提琴和钢琴演奏的舒曼和莫扎特的演出引起了轰动。由Tanja Tetzlaff演奏的大提琴是一把音质甘美芳醇的瓜达尼尼1776。小提琴则是由她的兄弟Christian Tetzlaff演奏的,与大提琴的声音交相辉映,完美的互补,但是先前人们并没有预料到。它是由当代的德国弦乐器制作家Peter Greiner 制作的。




Mr Tetzlaff plays not just one but two Greiner violins: a louder, brighter one he has owned for ten years and which is particularly good for solo parts, and the darker one, more suitable for ensembles, which he used that evening. Most string virtuosi perform on instruments made by Italian masters a few hundred years ago, and preferably by Antonio Stradivari, the greatest of them all.




Tetzlaff 先生拥有两把Greiner的小提琴:一把比较宽宏响亮的适合独奏,同时也已经演奏十年了;另一把音量较小,更适合合奏,他一般用来在晚上演奏。大部分喜欢古董琴的演奏家更青睐于几百年前的意大利大师琴,其中最著名的是安东尼奥·斯特拉迪瓦里的作品。




Mr Tetzlaff has previously played two Strads and a Guadagnini. Now, when he gives a concert on one of his Greiners, people often ask whether it is a Strad. He thinks that the best modern violin-makers offer outstanding quality at a small fraction of the price of an old one by a famous maker.




因为之前Tetzlaff先生演奏过两把斯琴和一把瓜达尼尼,所以,当他用格雷纳的琴举办音乐会以后,人们不断的问他是不是用斯琴演奏的。他认为当代优秀的提琴制作家能制作出许多杰出的作品,但其价格只是古董琴的一小部分。


[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-15 0:39:32编辑过]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-7-15 15:04:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用ambertree在2010-7-15 0:08:00的发言:



看看这个人贴的, 他用GREINER的琴来演奏, 他也用原版师琴和瓜达尼尼琴, 而大家也是问他是不是用意大利古琴, 而GREINER的琴也不过十年, 它声音就成熟了, 可以用于音乐厅了的大型音乐会,表是GREINER制琴的水平已经超越了古意大利琴师了?

我看过关于要买GREINER的琴, 还得先寄给他的经纪人个人简历, 评比后才决定要不要帮这个人作琴, 他定单是多的作不完就是了。。。。。。。

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





英国威格摩尔厅音乐会的票已经脱销了,小提琴、大提琴和钢琴演奏的舒曼和莫扎特的演出引起了轰动。由Tanja Tetzlaff演奏的大提琴是一把音质甘美芳醇的瓜达尼尼1776。小提琴则是由她的兄弟Christian Tetzlaff演奏的,与大提琴的声音交相辉映,完美的互补,但是先前人们并没有预料到。它是由当代的德国弦乐器制作家Peter Greiner 制作的。




Mr Tetzlaff plays not just one but two Greiner violins: a louder, brighter one he has owned for ten years and which is particularly good for solo parts, and the darker one, more suitable for ensembles, which he used that evening. Most string virtuosi perform on instruments made by Italian masters a few hundred years ago, and preferably by Antonio Stradivari, the greatest of them all.




Tetzlaff 先生拥有两把Greiner的小提琴:一把比较宽宏响亮的适合独奏,同时也已经演奏十年了;另一把音量较小,更适合合奏,他一般用来在晚上演奏。大部分喜欢古董琴的演奏家更青睐于几百年前的意大利大师琴,其中最著名的是安东尼奥·斯特拉迪瓦里的作品。




Mr Tetzlaff has previously played two Strads and a Guadagnini. Now, when he gives a concert on one of his Greiners, people often ask whether it is a Strad. He thinks that the best modern violin-makers offer outstanding quality at a small fraction of the price of an old one by a famous maker.




因为之前Tetzlaff先生演奏过两把斯琴和一把瓜达尼尼,所以,当他用格雷纳的琴举办音乐会以后,人们不断的问他是不是用斯琴演奏的。他认为当代优秀的提琴制作家能制作出许多杰出的作品,但其价格只是古董琴的一小部分。

















ambertree琴友,您比我年长,知道您对小提琴的知识涉猎广泛,想必外语应该也不错,论年纪论见识您都在我之上,那么,对于一个年龄见识知识水平在您之下的人,您何必表现出一副惊慌失措主次不分语无伦次的样子呢,你不怕这样会另众琴友耻笑么?您看到我最后加上的那句话了么,我这是转载分享供大家讨论的帖子,贴中只有翻译部分是加上去的,其余皆是杂志原版内容。我着实才识学浅,没能自己杜撰提琴历史提琴原理等知识,所以只能转文到此,众琴友讨论之余,我也可以膜拜各位老师的学识,汲取精华充实自己。同时,琴友们也可以欣赏到权威杂志的文章,欣惬之时也巩固深化加深了自己对提琴原理及历史知识的认识。望ambertree琴友对鄙人多多包涵,不吝赐教。


[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-15 0:39:32编辑过]

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-15 15:07:41编辑过]

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发表于 2010-7-15 22:44:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用starscream在2010-7-15 13:58:00的发言:

你要看看使用的是哪一把strad strad不是每把都好。况且,这不是比较strad和现代琴 是太讨论3年时间是否可以造成差别的问题。另外 我绝对相信现代人做的琴可以超过一些strad或者Guar,但是演奏家演奏时经纪人还会尽可能让他用古董名琴 这是营销问题。所以我这研究也就是好玩而已,但是可以做 很好。中国人做事一定要讲重要不重要,其实完全没必要 你自己觉得好玩就去做好了 管他重要不重要 况且 谁说得准 啥时候说不定就变重要了



可以把这个问题看成是重要且有趣的, 如果那些人知道这是STRAD, 那肯定会说STRAD 的声音最好, 如同最后那位心理学教授分析的, 同样的两把现代琴, 如果先告知那一把是一直使用的, 那心理就会有先入为主的概念, 觉得那把就好, 这就和STRAD 的那个实验有关, 也就是在BIND TEST中, 那位小提琴家无法分出的原因, 还有, 我不是中国人, 我是你们说的白人, 只是懂中文而已, 我们干活也是重要且有意义才做, 不是只有老中才是如此。。。。。

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发表于 2010-7-15 22:49:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用考拉ms在2010-7-15 15:04:00的发言:


[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-15 15:07:41编辑过]



英文是我的主要语言, 只是就讨论而已, 顺道增加自己的中文程度, 这是看了论坛上有关小提琴的文章得出的结论, 如果你觉得有所侵犯, 我就说个声对不起了。。。。
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