英文论坛关于唱名法的讨论

mifi

From Nicole Stacy
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 04:15 AM

Solfege is for developing an understanding of pitch relationships.  If you use movable do, as someone mentioned, it will also help you immensely with transposition (when you take your conducting fundamentals, you won't necessarily have to sit there and painstakingly count intervals) -- not as crucial to strings as to the brass, but still a useful thing.

Personally I find it somewhat obsolete in my own use; but then, I am not boasting when I say I can sing you anything right now, on pitch, including pieces that were hardly written for the voice and that I haven't thought about in years.  I would not hesitate to recommend solfege, or to use it to teach someone.

mifi

From Gregory Lee
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 07:03 AM

It seems the international standard is fixed Do, (used in Europe, Asia, Juilliard, etc). 

How would you solfege 1st movt of Franck sonata with moveable-Do?  The key changes are so frequent?

mifi

From janet griffiths
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 01:31 PM

In some countries the notes are named do-re- mi rather than abc.The do is a c.This was the original way of naming the notes of a scale.The movable do was introduced by Curwen as a way of simplifying choral singing in non music readers and has since been developed by Kodaly and others as a useful tool in ear training.In Italy we use a fixed do and it would be inconcievable to use a movable do as there is no substitute for the names of the notes.In this case using numbers as an alternative could be a solution but as far as I know it is not used.

mifi

From Christopher Payne
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 01:50 PM

 I understand what you are saying Scott but I found that my knowledge of intervals was good enough that I understood the relations note to note and within the scale. The points you mentioned were grasped well enough by using intervals. If you know intervals well then you don't count up the scale and you can quickly label it as major 3rd, minor 7th etc., you just don't need to say it out loud! I come from more of a jazz background where using degrees of the scale/chord seem more common. I never heard anyone using solfege in jazz and my jazz ear-training was much more vigorous than my classical ear-training.

I just think that solfege is not for everybody. I say that because I had a system that worked and then was forced to do solfege which I had no use for and was a hindrance in my case. I understand that if you are teaching a group of people that you need some system however, I think solfege without knowing intervals really well isn't so good.

mifi

From Alain Lefebure
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 06:41 PM

In french conservatories solfege  is for everybody. Pupils  must study it for at least one year (sometimes two years) before starting instrument.and its sudy last during the whole  instrumental period of learning  (about 6 years).

Solfege include

Reading of notes using the different clefswith respect to tempo and rythm

Singing the note using rythms and intonation.it can be compared to a song whose words would be  the name of the note (do re mi fa sol la si)

Musical theory .

Solfege is especially valuable  when a specific instrumental difficulty  occurs

mifi

From Scott Cole
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 09:41 PM

Just because something is an international standard doesn't make it right. In many disciplines, ideas and methods continue just out of institutional intertia. For instance, at one college interview, I asked the department chair why they used a number system for singing, and he replied "well, that's the way we've always done it." Not a very thoughtful or inspired answer. It's also an international standard to drive an internal-combustion vehicle, though it's not such a great idea for the environment.

Another very good example is the way that so many theory courses the world over teach a cadential 6-4 chord as being labeled a "I 6/4", which is utterly wrong. Unfortunately, most theory students call it the wrong thing. Why? Who knows? It's easily proven wrong.

If a piece of music is tonal--that is, uses major/minor tonality--then it really doesn't matter how often it modulates, and movable do is perfectly valid. One simply has to find the point of modulation (often there may be more than one interpretation) and change the solfege syllables into the new key. And that right there is the beauty of the movable system--that one thinks in terms of scale degree function, and not actual letter names of the notes, which is really irrelevant. The only time the solfege system breaks down is with non-tonal music, with such systems as a pan-diatonic scale (Shostakovich), or octatonic (Stravinsky) or other modern systems. The Franck Sonata is perfectly tonal, and solfege works perfectly. It just means more practice to sing correctly.

mifi

From Scott Cole
Posted on November 18, 2008 at 09:52 PM

Chris,

Yes, YOUR knowledge of intervals is, like most string and keyboard players, very good. These people rarely have problems in class. However, many other freshman musicians have a terrible time with intervals, and solfege helps them. That's why, as I said, movable do is simply better: the same syllables reinforce the idea of the same intervals. People who have no tactile sense of intervals need something solid to relate to, and changing the meaning of the syllables from major to minor is counter-productive.

I know I'm sounding very rigid about how I teach it, but what I'm hearing is that most people feel the other systems are better simply because "that's the way we do it." At Peabody I had to learn fixed-do, and it was only later with much teaching experience did I begin to see that fixed-do only seems easier.

What if, for chord analysis, we used "I" to represent tonic in major, but used "vi" to represent tonic in minor. Now all the roman numerals will have to change meaning, won't they? A dominant chord in minor will now be iii. Would that make sense? But we don't, because it would just be more confusing. I is tonic, period. V is dominant, period. vi is sub-mediant. Period.

Regardless of mode.

The situation is exactly the same for the syllables.

mifi

From Gregory Lee
Posted on November 19, 2008 at 03:48 AM

So with moveable Do, how do you name 'pivot chord' notes?  What if the key is ambiguous in a certain passage of a tonal piece?  I'd imgine sight-singing would be quite tricky then unless you could see the accompaniment.  Or you did a full harmonic analysis before singing. 

I can certainly see the advantage of moveable-Do but I also see the advantages of fixed-Do.  The Juilliard method of training uses Dandelot (French solfege book) which covers all 7 clefs.  That's challenging enough for many people. 

The fact that different conservatories within the US have different solfege systems can be confusing for students and I wish it was more standardized.

mifi

From Craig Coleman
Posted on November 19, 2008 at 05:31 AM

I was taught solfege using Danhauser and Lemoine books from the Paris Conservatory and that study was very much the backbone of my music education. The german note names are very useful and should be learned. C,Cis and Ces can be said or sung in one syllable instead of C,Csharp,Cflat which is very cumbersome.The key signatures should also be learned in german besides your native language.

mifi

From Scott Cole
Posted on November 19, 2008 at 07:27 AM

Gregory,

Yes, you have to figure out which note you think is the pivot note (if the modulation is that type).

And sometimes, yes, it might be ambiguous. 

However, once a student reaches sight-singing music of that difficulty --later in the second year--he or she should also have the theory chops to analyze the music. 

While you say that highly chromatic music would be "quite tricky" to sing, I'd suggest that it's supposed to be. No one ever said gaining advanced musical skills like singing late tonal music would--or should--be easy. That's the #1 problem encountered by music faculty: music students think music should be easier than it is.

mifi

From Alain Lefebure
Posted on November 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM

The way that so many theory courses the world over teach a cadential 6-4 chord as being labeled a "I 6/4", which is utterly wrong. Unfortunately, most theory students call it the wrong thing. Why? Who knows? It's easily proven wrong.

I have to disagree :both notations are valid. Harmonic  theories  are based on two differents historical concept more or less mixed up

1-Harmony is an "upgraded counterpoint " with so   many voice leading rules and exceptions which is a continuation of figured bass  . The Melody prevails over the harmony .This is the base of the French school

2-Harmony is based on physical law of resonance for which degree and function theories have bee evolved.Although this theory stem from the French Rameau's theory this approach was developped by the German school (Stuffen theory,Riemman adn so on)  .The harmony is the base of the melody .

So { GCE} may equally be considered as V 46 (figured bass) or second inversion of CM (in CM of course)  it may be also analyzed as appogiatura of V.

There is also a difference in the degrees scale balance between the french and german school.

1°) The french system ,with a melodic logic, based upon  Two degrees:

-The tonic enclosed by the subtonic (or leading tone)  and supertonic

-The  dominant framed with  the subdominant and superdominant (VI th  degree)

The pivot beeing the mediant

2°) The german systemwith an harmonic approach  based on 3 degrees

-the tonic that is the pivot surrounded with the  supertonic and the  subtonic or leading tone

-Sub dominant a fifth lower divided by the submediant

-Dominant a fifth upper divided by the mediant

mifi

From Scott Cole
Posted on November 19, 2008 at 06:34 PM

Calling a cadential 6/4 a second-inversion is simply inconsistent with any modern chord analysis, regardless of history, or French or German systems. Here are the reasons:

1. a I chord is the goal of harmonic motion, and a cadential 6/4 is not functioning in the least as a tonic chord. A cadential 6/4 simply looks like a I chord in second inversion--it is not, and does not function that way. 

2. A cadential 6/4 is a suspension, and a suspension in any other circumstances is NOT analyzed using the suspended notes. The suspended notes are actually non-chord tones--they are NOT part of the chord. Instead, like any other suspension, the chord should be analyzed at with the chord of resolution.

3. If the tones 6 and 4 above the bass don't result from a suspension, then they are accented passing tones, and still should not be analyzed as being part of the chord--you still have to wait till they resolve, just like any accented passing tones.

In order to be consistent with how we analyze tonal harmony, cadential 6/4 chords should be treated like what they are: suspensions. Just look at any Bach choral: no one would consider analyzing the suspended chords in terms of the suspended notes until they resolve on the weak beat. If you try to, you get either no answer, or wrong answers, just like the I 6/4. 

It's like saying "4+4=7" just because you don't feel like doing the math, and that's what everyone has taught.

mifi

From Alain Lefebure
Posted on November 20, 2008 at 08:11 AM

Hi ,scott

Sorry to partly disagree once more.

Your arguments are true as long as you are refering to "tonal music" which is a small part of music with not clearly defined limits. Futhermore, as you say it with a modern way of analyze that may lead to a misconception of interpretation especially with Bach music which is not fully  tonal.

mifi

From Nick W.
Posted on November 20, 2008 at 08:40 AM

Bach is not fully tonal?!! Can you elaborate?

mifi

From Alain Lefebure
Posted on November 20, 2008 at 10:07 AM

Bach period  is a transition between  modal music and tonal music .That explains ,for example,some key signature anomalies (eg music in Eb major with only two flats) because the sixth degree is moveable  according to the melodic slope ,even in major  or some cross relation due melodic accidental especially  the seventh degree.(mi-fa hexacordum rule)

Futhermore ,in  JS Bach 's case, he was said "Old fashioned" by his sons

mifi

http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20113/12154/

The beginner in music certainly learns to sing, but in the process they also learn to identify scale elements with solfege. Solfege is that series of syllables made famous by the Do-Re-Mi song in the Sound of Music. The syllables can be applied to any music, and someone with good music education is able to do so. For example, this simple song should be easily identifiable by anyone with a musical education:

Do Do Sol Sol La La Sol

Fa Fa Mi Mi Re Re Do....

The brain process here is rather complex and involves much problem-solving, especially in the beginning.

One also learns rhythms: not only how to physically execute them but also rhythmic notation: how those rhythms are translated into written language.

One learns about the key signatures that create the various scale patterns, the concept of major and minor scales and also of modes, pentatonic scales, whole-step scales and chromatic scales. For this you need to know the order of the sharps and the order of the flats, for example, the sharps go F, C, G, D, A, E, B. And of course if you have a musical education you see the obvious: That's a circle of fifths.

Which brings me to intervals: learning to identify how far various notes are from one another - a half-step, whole-step, second, third, etc. It's good to be able to identify these both when the notes are played one right after another ("That's a fifth!") and also when they are played simultaneously.

Then one learns the chords that music are based upon and their functions. Any pop musician who creates a song knows music usually begins in the tonic key, perhaps moves to the dominant and subdominant, then it might modulate, and then we are talking about the tonic key of the modulation, etc. (Sometimes they don't realize they've written an entire song on the tonic without even a change of chord - it's a boring song, but they don't know that's why, because they don't really have a musical education.)

Beyond this is the physical discipline of learning how to play an instrument. This is different for every instrument, but let's use the violin as an example. A student must be able to identify the parts of the violin, the names of the strings, and how to create notes on the instrument. Also, he or she must know the correct way to hold the violin and the correct way to hold the bow, how to place the left-hand fingers and with much practice and repetition, come to a point where holding the violin and playing it come as easily as walking.

Next, we have to take those notes on the page and play them on the violin, learning a great many symbols on the page as well as things like bow articulations (staccato, legato, etc.), when fingers are placed where, how to shift up the fingerboard.

We learn to play in tune and learn how to play in harmony with others. We learn that music can only happen against a backdrop of everyone's silence and stillness. We start together, move together in finely detailed ways, end together. When it goes well, it's one powerful, shared sensation.

The deeper you go into music education, the more opportunities open for complex thinking, problem-solving, individual and community expression, and cultural understanding.

mifi

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=8307

From Luke Strong
Posted January 11, 2006 at 07:13 AM

I have been having trouble with flats and sharps, espicially flats. I really want to play hymns out of our hymnal but so many have lots of flats. I know that some fingers are closer together than others depending on what the key signitures are. Mabey I'm not making much sence. I hope someone can help me.

mifi

From Emily Grossman
Posted on January 11, 2006 at 09:46 AM

You're going to get more helpful responses if we know something about what you do know about key signatures. Do you understand why they exist, and where the whole and half steps are in any major scale? What keys are you absolutely sure about?

I like to show the c major scale to my students on a piano, where all the whole and half steps fall naturally in place. They sing the scale using solfege, feeling the half steps between mi and fa, and between ti and do. They see it on a piano, they then build the scale on their instrument connecting the solfege with the notes, feeling the half steps between mi and fa, and between ti and do with their fingers. You need to have a solid understanding of whole and half steps. C major has no accidentals because all of the notes already fall in place without needing them. Look at the keyboard. When you start on C and end on C, the white keys that have no black keys in between (E-F, B-C) are the half steps, and they are right where they need to be, between the third and fourth notes (mi-fa) and the seventh and eighth notes (ti-do). the rest of the notes are whole steps because there are black keys in between them.

To understand why a key signature is what it is, you have to understand the major scale and how to build one. Pick any note--for instance, D. If you want to build a major scale on D, you need to raise the F to F-sharp to have a half-step between the 3rd and 4th note. You will also need to raise the C to C-sharp in order to have the half-step between the 7th and 8th note. D major goes D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D. On the violin, the half step falls between the 2nd and 3rd finger, on both the D string and the G string.

Now that I've thoroughly confused you, you could also look at it this way. If you can memorize the name of the key signature, at least you'll know what the first note of the scale is, right? Flats are easy. 1 flat is F major, and all the rest are named after the second to last flat in the key signature. If you see four flats, look at the third, and that's the name of the key: A-flat major. Find an A-flat on your instrument and construct a scale by placing half steps between the 3rd and 4th note and the 7th and 8th note of the scale. It really helps if you label them with the solfege and just remember mi-fa is always half-step, and ti-do is half step. To memorize the names of the sharp key signatures, use your strings. One sharp is G, 2 is D, right in order like the strings. Play the scales until you are comfortable with hearing and feeling where those half steps are.

There is no shortcut. You need to first fully grasp the sound and feel of a scale, and then you need to practice playing all of the scales you want to be able to read music in. Then, when you play the notes, you'll have that under your fingers to guide you, and it will all make sense, and your ear will kick in and let you know when you've missed an accidental.

I'm sorry if I either just spent a long time explaining something you already know, or spent a long time confusing you. I love teaching this stuff, and it makes more sense when I can give a lesson in person, but I think it's possible you can teach yourself. Assuming you have a teacher, I'd recommend raising this issue. Don't be afraid to spend an entire lesson or two figuring it out. It's essential.

天龍八部

先入为主吧。小时候在国内学的是固定调，DO既是C，后来到了香港和美国，发现都是用首调的，C就是C，DO就是DO，只好自己在脑子换。不过我是有标准音准的，所以首调没什么用，反正一听就能听出是哪个音。