英文论坛关于唱名法的讨论

mifi

From Sue Donim
Posted on November 9, 2004 at 03:12 AM

I really wish I knew more about both solfege systems - although I'm beginning to pick it up as I have a five-year-old inherited student who's been taught using Sheila Nelson's Essential Method, which involves sol-fa. What I'd like to know is how the student is taught to recognise the tonic?

mifi

From Inge S
Posted on November 9, 2004 at 04:06 AM

oh this is fun, the Russian part is in Cyrillic font - it looks like German, English and Hungarian use the A, B, C system, whilr French, Spanish, Russian and Italian use syllable names.

You don't want to know about the flats and sharps in German and Hungarian - A Cb is called Ces, a Db is called Des, Eb is Es, etc. while the sharps end in "is" (Cis, Dis, Eis etc.) In the fixed do solfege system flats are "bemol" and sharps are "dies" or "diesis" (except Spanish uses "sostenido") So your D# in French and Russian would be "re diese" (and in Spanish, re sostenido according to this book.)

Just to make it more interesting, in German and Hungarian B is called H - Somebody once explained why but I don't remember.

A new choir member was totally lost by references to A, B, C etc. and it turned out since she was from France was totally unfamiliar with those names. She was actually quite miffed that we would call the notes such silly things.

mifi

From Inge S
Posted on November 9, 2004 at 04:10 AM

But was the Russian conductor referring to movable do solfege, or simply referring to the notes in his language? Since my teacher and I both speak numerous languages and share three of them, he occasionally has fun referring to the notes in German to expand my horizons. I wonder - if an orchestra is made up of several nationalities, what do they do?

mifi

From Rita Livs
Posted on November 9, 2004 at 05:16 AM

I'm very familiar with Russian system but have nothing to add. Just can say that solfege takes a major place in music educational system in Russia. I studied solfege 7 years in music school, 4 years in music college and took exam to enter conservatory. This exam consisted of music dictation, sight singing regular and sight singing double-voice: one voice you sing, 2nd you play on the piano and at the same time you have to conduct using left arm. Also, exam includes listening test: a teacher playes on the piano intervals, chords, modulations, etc., and you have to name what you hear.

mifi

From Caren Babich
Posted on November 10, 2004 at 11:17 AM

both forms of Solfege (moveable and fixed) has played different roles in my attempts to improve.

With Solfege, the moveable "Do" system is useful for interval recognition and literally SEEING the distance between notes and registering that in the given key. Fixed "Do" (at least for me) was helpful with ear training of hearing the distances and recognizing the voices in complex writing. Both are helpful systems for separate focal points. I have found that in my studies in Europe, moveable "do" is unheard of...which caters to the idea that their syllables literally are their letter names (for example at the Paris Conservatory).

Fixed "do" uses the typical do, re, mi, fa system, however moveable counts for all the half steps in between: do, di, re, ri, mi, fa, fi, sol, si, la, li, and ti and that brings you back to do, do, do, do!!!!

While singing the syllables is one thing, interchanging the knowledge of sightreading from letters to syllables could get confusing. If you don't like syllables, sing the letter name or scale degree.

Whatever you do, be consistent. If you focus on too many things at once, your brain may go on auto and then the learning process will not be as effective.

西风古道瘦马

原来mifi兄的英文也是如此了得，实在佩服！ 自己看的是一头雾水！

mifi

可惜这里发帖之后分成一行一行显示的时候，不能自动处理，以至于很多单词在一行结尾的时候分成两截，后半截掉到下一行开头，增加了大家阅读的难度。

读多了自然就越来越容易，尤其是积累一些音乐专业词汇之后，就不觉得费力了。

mifi

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?id=8297

From George Philips
Posted on January 9, 2006 at 02:41 AM

I'm not sure how great solfeging a piece is for teaching sightreading. In fact, I don't believe that that is the purpose of solfege. Solfege is a system that helps teach the concept of intervals.

Solfeging is still a great thing to teach, though. A friend of mine who has studied solfege since he was quite young recommended Danhausser's "Solfege de Solfege" for working on spitting out syllables quickly, and Hindemith's "Elementary Training for Musicians" was good for teaching rhythmic tricks and improving musicality. Plus, the great part about it is that you can practice these exercises on the violin and improve your sense of rhythm and finger mobility for big and awkward jumps.

mifi

From Jiji Goosby
Posted on January 9, 2006 at 05:20 PM

Do you know where you can get those books you mentioned? If you do please let me know. I will certainly look into it. Thank you!

From George Philips
Posted on January 10, 2006 at 12:25 AM

amazon.com offers both of those books, I believe.

mifi

From Alison Smith
Posted on January 22, 2006 at 08:44 PM

I bought a piece of software a few years ago called Earmaster Pro. It includes exercises in intervals, chords inversions, chord progressions, rhythms etc and the good thing about it is that you can change the level of difficulty and test yourself. You get to see the notes (on the stave and on the piano) and hear them at the same time.

From BRIAN GARRISON
Posted on February 17, 2006 at 10:49 PM

A few years ago I purchased some software called MusicLabMelody by Town4Kids that teaches solfege. I bought it from Brook Mays. I really like it. Now I use MacGAMUT.

http://www.lentine.com/71113.htm?parentid=351

mifi

From Joseph Galamba
Posted on February 18, 2006 at 03:59 AM

There is no standard system of Solfege since Do is movable in the US (the tonic) and stationary in most of Europe and Asia (always C). Also, Do might be Ut or something else strange ~_~.

mifi

From George Philips
Posted on February 18, 2006 at 06:02 AM

Joseph, your ideas about solfege are slightly misplaced. The idea of moveable do is not an idea unique to the US. Moveable do can be traced all the way back to the 11th century in monastic works in Europe. The Kodaly system of education which was based in Hungary was a strong proponent of moveable do. At most of the major conservatories in the U.S. fixed do is the solfege of choice. I know for a fact that Julliard, Eastman, Cleveland Institute use it. Fixed do in a school setting doesn't really make much sense, and I would argue that it also doesn't really teach interval relationships or allow for quick harmonic analysis (the purpose of solfege).

mifi

From Joseph Galamba
Posted on February 18, 2006 at 07:17 AM

I stand corrected, but there ARE two systems, right?

I'm curious now, how do you handle accidentals and the various forms of the minor scale with solfege? Like...would it be useful at all in analysing augmented sixth chords or Neapolitan chords or secondary functions? How do you say...Mi-sharp?

Oop, never mind. Do Di Ra Ri Me Mi Fa Fi Se So Si Le La Li Te Ti unless Si replaces Ti or Ut replaces Do or Sol replaces So or Doh replaces Do >_<

Now, what's the advantage of this over...memorizing all the triads and seventh chords in letters and learning to do harmonic analysis? Is it any easier to memorize that the tonic triad is Do, Mi, So(l) or, for example in G, is so(l) si(ti) re than it is to memorize that the tonic triad in G is G, B (or H), D? I'm sure it would be very difficult to sing a piece with a large number of accidentals (umm...some atonal piece of some kind for example) with the Solfege system.

BTW: On topic there is an article on Solfege here and to teach the major scale with a movable Do you can always use the song from The Sound of Music. I would post a link to the recording of Julie Andrews and children singing it, but I'm pretty sure that's illegal ^^U

mifi

From George Philips
Posted on February 19, 2006 at 05:07 PM

The way you were describing a major triad was using fixed do. In moveable do, a major triad will always be do mi sol. The advantage of doing the solfege as opposed to memorizing chords by note names is that it is a lot less memorization. Wouldn't you agree that it is a lot easier to now that a 5 7 chord is always sol si re fa, than to have to learn the notes for a 5 7 in every key? It's about 1/7 the amount of memorization. And for those of us with awful memories (I've been likened to a goldfish on several occassions, never favorably), this makes life a lot easier. You are right about solfge in atonal music. In those cases, fixed do is much easier as harmonic analysis is very complicated.

mifi

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=14928

From Daniel Blomdahl
Posted November 13, 2008 at 07:42 PM

Why do people use soflege? (sp?, do re me fa so la ti do) I have found out that the college I go to teaches using soflege. I did not learn this way and it is harder for me to use and to me it seems childish. I don't want to offend people who use it I just remember it being in the Sound of Music and stuff I guess. Sorry for rambling.

mifi

From J Kingston
Posted on November 13, 2008 at 08:02 PM

It is used for sight singing and ear training and in lots of educational materials for learning to read choral music. Go to any rack of choral music at the store and you might find choral "etude" style books using elements of solfege. If you are a musician and your voice is your instrument it makes a lot of sense versus humming or singing one sound don't you think? You are the instrument and hear your voice from the inside of your body instead of as something external. As string players the instrument is something outside of us that creates the sound.

It is useful too when you look at new sheets. You can know what they sound like before you play them. The do, re makes it clear what note you think you are singing and what everyone else thinks they are singing.

mifi

From Patricia Baser
Posted on November 14, 2008 at 01:40 AM

You need to find out if they used moveable or fixed "do".  At CIM, we used fixed "do" and had to sight sing our way through many French sol-feg books using treble, bass, alto, tenor, and soprano clef.  We also sight sang in parts through many a Bach cantata.  The use of syllables goes WAY back.  It is not childish, but a way to develop your ear.

mifi

From Helen Martin
Posted on November 15, 2008 at 03:00 AM

I believe we need solfege. I do understand the value of Fixed Do, but movable is an essential element of every musician's training.

When you say it is childish, it sounds like you think it bears resemblance to the Emperor's New Clothes, but in this instance it will actually bring you much closer to realizing your full musical potential. You will, however, benefit from parking the resistance. Solfege comprises the roots of your musical tree, intonationally speaking. It will also enhance your security when playing from memory. And then there is rhythmic solfege! More? Google "Edwin Gordon."

Another post asked about dealing with ledger lines. Solfege is the essential tool for this challenge. Please go to my personal website- using Internet Explorer - and then click on SURE START SAMPLES. There you will find THE ELEPHANT AND THE MONKEY.  My text implies that your read the Elephant as "Do, Mi-Mi, Do, Mi, Fa," and the Monkey (always) as "Sol, Sol-Sol, Sol, Sol-Sol; Sol-La-Sol- Fa-Mi-Fa-Sol. Could it be this simple?
 

Joke: I want my money back! I was an Eastman student when numbers were taught instead of solfege. (So I had to re-root my audiation skills.)

mifi

From Christopher Payne
Posted on November 17, 2008 at 05:53 PM

I think it's much better to use numbers and know what degree of the scale you are using. The number  equivalent of a movable do would be to to think note to note by interval. It's intervalic knowledge that is important at the end of the day.

I was rather annoyed at college when they were teaching us this as I'd learnt the numbers way. I would have to translate numbers into solfege which was just silly!

mifi

From Scott Cole
Posted on November 17, 2008 at 10:10 PM

I've taught solfege for 4 years at the college level, both first and second years. Why do we teach solfege, and why do I teach moveable do (instead of fixed do or numbers)?

 

Music students need to learn and internalize several key aspects of tonal music:

1. the concept of a central tone, and the functions of the different tones (dominant, leading tone, etc.)

2. the relationships of the half-steps and how they function to define a scale.

3. the differences between major and the various forms of minor.

We use solfege as a common language for students who play a wide variety of instruments, including percussion.

 

So why moveable do?

Numbers may be easier to learn in the short run, but they do not differentiate between the half steps in the way that solfege does. I believe it's more effective to use a la-ti on an ascending minor scale, and a le-te on the way down. Simply saying "7" doesn't differentiate between the two functions of a leading tone and a sub tonic--and they are very different functions. And saying "2-3" for both major and minor scales teaches the student nothing about the all-important difference a lowered third and a raised third.

Fixed-do has the inherent problem that the half-steps fall between different syllables in major and minor, which seems to immediately contradict the need to learn the functions of the tones. Minor in fixed- do is thus treated as a variation or subsidiary of major, which it is not. In other words, the first tone of minor acts harmonically like tonic, the fifth like dominant, and the leading tone like...well, a leading tone. And so it's just more consistent to call all tonics "do," all dominants "so" and all leading tones "ti."

 

Moveable do is also much easier for intervals. For example, Do-so is ALWAYS a perfect 5th, and fa-ti is ALWAYS a tritone in both major and minor. What about with numbers? It depends on which scale you're using, so the intervals change. And the same for fixed do.

I believe that both numbers and fixed-do are taught for one reason: they're easier to learn at the very beginning. However, after several years of experience teaching theory, and the knowledge that what needs to be learned is SCALE FUNCTION ABOVE ALL ELSE, that moveable do really is the best system because it is one system while fixed do and numbers are really 2 different systems that have to be learned.